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what is up everybody uh thanks for

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joining us it is

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thursday

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just before 1 30 p.m central and we have

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the wonderful ralph blumenthal on deck

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in the green room

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i did not stock the beer fridge

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unfortunately so

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um but i really appreciate you guys

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coming out

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uh disclosure bro what's up robert um

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jos

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bass

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julie

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everybody i appreciate it um

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you know part of doing this

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you know part of the unseen uh fortunes

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i come across in doing this show is

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having to

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into new people

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um

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that maybe

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i wasn't so aware of at first i mean

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keep in mind i'd

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been paying attention this stuff for

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less than a year

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but as i do that sometimes i run into

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little pieces of

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of gold

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you know that may help me in my path

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um

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and just not even in this just in

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general as a person and uh john mack

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um is seemingly one of those

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and

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you know

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ralph blumenthal for for putting as much

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work in as he has on mr mac

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um

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deserves quite a bit of respect because

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it's you know unfortunately still a

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stigmatized topic

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so i really respect him for that and i

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really look forward to talking to him

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about this

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um thanks jay

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jay king we had him on before the

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experiencers uh that was one of my

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favorite shows

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um

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just really good people really good

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nice organic

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people

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and um you know i've

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tried to do that as best as i can or be

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that sometimes i fail but you know

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people like him help me so

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with that being said you know what

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happens now i'm gonna play the little

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intro and then we'll come back

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and we'll get things started so yeah see

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[Music]

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all right so yep here we go we have mr

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blumenthal with us

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how are you today sir great sean thank

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you for having me yeah it's my pleasure

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thanks so much for doing this

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i'm sure you got a lot of important

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stuff to do so this is important this is

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very important well i appreciate it so

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much um

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your book the believer

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um

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fantastic really fantastic work it

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really uh opened my eyes to i was saying

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earlier not only

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uh this topic and experiences and you

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know how serious and crucial those

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stories are but just

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um such a great perspective on on life

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in general um

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you know i was just watching a clip

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earlier

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and one of the things he said was

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um

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how you know our reality is kind of

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shaped by our language

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and uh man that is true and you could go

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really deep with that but

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i guess i'll start with the kind of

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cliche

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stuff

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um

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how did you

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how did where did you find about where'd

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you find john mack

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um and what was maybe the first thing

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that really really drew you in where you

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realized you couldn't stop thinking

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about it well you know he found me

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every book i've done

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really has been kind of uh

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spiritual adventures or you know

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synchronistic in the sense that i didn't

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start out deciding i was going to do

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this topic the topic kind of found me

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so um i was in texas for the new york

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times a correspondent

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and i picked up a copy of a book one day

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called passport to the cosmos i didn't

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know anything about it john mack a

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harvard psychiatrist

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um writing about aliens and i thought

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that was kind of weird um

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so um i read the book i was blown away

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by it um and i thought i'd give him a

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call uh you know call him up and do an

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interview maybe sounded interesting

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i had no idea how famous he already was

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i was kind of naive uh he'd been on

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oprah you know this was his second book

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he caused quite a stir at harvard kind

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of an uproar

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um and a few days later i pick up the

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paper and he's been run over and killed

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in london by a drunk driver wow and uh

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yeah wow i mean um so i reached out to

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the family and i eventually got access

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to his materials his archives

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and um it went on from there but you

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know you said you were kind of new to

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this and you know you stumbled across it

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and and so did john mack

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he didn't plan on

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uh investigating you know alien

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abduction through a series of things i

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talked about in the book uh it kind of

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found him just like he found me

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so uh life is strange that way yeah it's

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interesting you know it's i don't i

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doubt anyone growing up

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is you know when they're asked what do

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you want to be when you grow up

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i want to you know investigate alien

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abductions

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what do you want to do i'll be president

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yeah

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be a cop

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but that no that's that's interesting

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what you say there that you know it

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found you and and the synchronicities in

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it um

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i you know the

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i'm 37 but i've i've been seeing in in

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realizing that

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kind of the best stuff in life comes

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that way it's not forced that's organic

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and

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you know when something tickles your

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fancy so to speak

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you know in an organic way and you

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follow that through

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um good things come from it now was this

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the only

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you know what other situations have you

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had that are are like this

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um or is this unique to itself

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no every book i mean i've done seven

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books actually yeah uh four by myself

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and and uh two or three with the

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collaborators um

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and all the books just sort of

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popped in into my path uh my first book

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was on the mafia right and

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the times assigned me to cover a trial

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which turned out to be the longest

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federal trial in history uh called the

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pizza connection about

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you know mob guys who were selling drugs

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out of pizza parlors around the country

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i mean not just small quantities this

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was like a billion dollar

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enterprise internationally and

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you know one thing led to another i

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started covering the trial and

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i got really interested in it and made

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contacts and ended up doing a book on it

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and then a character in the book uh

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somebody i interviewed an undercover cop

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told me a story that became another book

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and you know things like that a call i

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would get from somebody who suggested

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itself as an interesting story that

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bloomed into a book

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so um i believe what you said is true

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that life has strange pathways

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and um

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it's like a flow a river and things just

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happen

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probably for some reason we don't

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understand right

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and that's what happened to me i i did

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not grow up saying i'm gonna write about

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alien

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i've never i've never been abducted as i

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as i often say neither was john mack

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right uh he never saw a ufo i've never

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seen a ufo

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um i've had you know spiritual

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experiences but sure um i can't say i'm

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you know

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one of those people like jay king i i i

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love to talk to the experiences because

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you say they're all really good people

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uh perfectly normal except for these

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um

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now you mentioned uh john mack never had

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uh he was never abducted by aliens i

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thought i heard you say once that he

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that kind of

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rubbed him the wrong way maybe he was

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kind of pissed off and he wasn't is that

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true yeah he was disappointed because

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you know he was dealing with all these

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people telling the most amazing stories

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and these stories are unimaginable

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really i mean too

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incredible to make up they're not just

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somebody being you know kidnapped by an

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alien and put aboard a spaceship

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right very very subtle strange stories

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some of them don't even involve ufos um

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and um so he was hearing all these

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stories and he never

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participated so he always thought gee

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you know i i i want to why don't they

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pick me

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um and you know that's working

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another thing you know they don't nobody

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knows why certain people are picked out

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it does seem to run in families so

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you know if the grandparents had some

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kind of experience then the children and

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then the grandchildren

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um so for some reason that seems to be a

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pattern but otherwise there's no way

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people have tried

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scholars and researchers have tried to

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find

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some common denominator

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you know

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to explain this like oh these people are

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crazy they're delusional right they're

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mentally ill and none of those

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explanations really work which john mack

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really was was diligent and

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um

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in in improving that there was no common

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denominator to explain these things no

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earthly

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explanation whatsoever yeah um so in the

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end he said well it must have happened

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somehow on some in some dimension so

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that's kind of what we're left with yeah

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it you know it you have a harvard

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harvard grad doing this taking this on

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um

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much the grin of harvard

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and

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you know did wonderful work

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put together wonderful research

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science even

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and

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there's still stigma like

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what is the recipe

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you know

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for a long time there was a stigma too

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against people who reported seeing ufos

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now we have a pentagon report

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confirming that these things exist right

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nobody knows what they are where they

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come from why they're here who's behind

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the wheel none of those questions have

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been answered but the pentagon now says

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quite

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uh authoritatively

287
00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:36,720
that these things physically exist

288
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:38,480
they're real they've been caught on you

289
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:42,000
know radar and thermal imaging cameras

290
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:45,120
um they outperform all our aircraft

291
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:47,200
they're not of this earth because the

292
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:48,480
chinese couldn't be doing this the

293
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:50,320
russians couldn't be doing this

294
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:51,519
right so

295
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,760
so these things are a mystery but

296
00:11:57,269 --> 00:11:55,920
they're real they're not a mental

297
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:57,279
figment you know

298
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:59,040
so um

299
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:00,720
so now

300
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:03,519
you know people in in the military uh

301
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:05,440
sailors and pilots who report these

302
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:07,120
things are not stigmatized the way they

303
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:08,399
used to be

304
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:11,600
so maybe that's promising yeah and i can

305
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:12,959
say it that

306
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:15,279
you know i know that for a fa i know

307
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:17,600
that for a fact i've been so deep in uh

308
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:20,079
old documents so to be honest it was

309
00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:22,720
quite a breath of fresh air to when i

310
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:25,680
started your book and you touched on dr

311
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,800
lapaz

312
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:28,079
um

313
00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:29,200
and

314
00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:31,600
you know because that's another

315
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:34,720
example of a genius person who was

316
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,040
honestly befuddled and didn't know what

317
00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:39,920
was going on i mean you couldn't figure

318
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,639
out why there was no sound and why these

319
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:44,639
things traveled horizontally

320
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:45,920
and

321
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:47,279
then yeah you even talked about a

322
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:48,720
starvation peak

323
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:50,560
incident which was awesome because you

324
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:52,000
know i don't get to hear people write

325
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:54,959
about that so much so i appreciated that

326
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:58,160
and you know you did a really great job

327
00:13:02,389 --> 00:12:59,600
taking that

328
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:02,399
to mac's work and even throwing lawrence

329
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:04,079
of arabia in the middle

330
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:06,959
right now which that story was intense

331
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:08,079
and now

332
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:09,680
it seems like

333
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:12,079
john mack was kind of

334
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:13,680
magnet you know

335
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,560
wounded people were kind of magnets well

336
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:18,560
yeah you know the reason i spent so much

337
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:20,560
time talking he want to pull a surprise

338
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:23,200
by the way right biography of lawrence

339
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,800
of arabia you know he went to the movies

340
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,880
like everybody else to see that movie

341
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,399
and we all came out and said wow that

342
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:30,560
was a great movie you know which it was

343
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:33,200
but he said i gotta find out more about

344
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:35,839
this guy lawrence and what drove him so

345
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:38,079
that his analytical mind was already

346
00:13:40,949 --> 00:13:39,120
working

347
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:40,959
and i spent

348
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,440
quite a bit of the book um talking about

349
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:45,680
his research into into lawrence he went

350
00:13:50,069 --> 00:13:48,320
to england mac did to find family

351
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:50,079
members in the middle east

352
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:51,920
but the purpose of that was to show that

353
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,639
he was a mac was a serious guy and he

354
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:56,720
believed in serious research

355
00:14:02,230 --> 00:13:59,839
um and the book won a pulitzer prize so

356
00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:02,240
when he turned his attention to uh

357
00:14:06,790 --> 00:14:03,440
aliens

358
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:06,800
uh in alien abduction um he brought with

359
00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:09,839
it the same kind of uh you know

360
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,760
rigor and intellectual uh curiosity so

361
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,079
he was not just anybody who was sort of

362
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,240
amused by the idea and decided to write

363
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:20,399
about it he really brought some

364
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,240
um some credentials to to his uh quest

365
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:27,040
yeah and that's that story uh about how

366
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:28,320
he wrote about

367
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:31,440
lawrence was very interesting because uh

368
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:33,279
there was some really dark sides to

369
00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:34,880
lawrence that

370
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:37,360
um you know he had to wrestle with if he

371
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:40,160
wanted to touch on or not you know yeah

372
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:42,560
he was brave i mean

373
00:14:46,949 --> 00:14:44,959
i'm glad you pointed that out because

374
00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:46,959
uh later on mack would come under

375
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:50,000
criticism from harvard and and others

376
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:51,760
uh you know that he was lending his

377
00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:54,240
psychiatric expertise to a fringe you

378
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:57,519
know frivolous topic uh and all that but

379
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:01,040
um early on he took on lawrence and uh

380
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:02,720
and entered into some

381
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:05,680
pretty controversial areas uh like uh

382
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:08,320
you know lawrence's sexual fetishes and

383
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:11,360
basically a masochist of sorts yeah he i

384
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:13,839
mean he he was flogged and he was trying

385
00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:14,959
to you know

386
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:16,079
uh

387
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:18,800
get over some some trauma he had you

388
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,680
know

389
00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:21,360
some real trauma actually

390
00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:22,880
lawrence was raped while he was in

391
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:24,480
turkish custody

392
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,920
um and that really wounded him and and

393
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:29,120
he uh

394
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:32,639
uh he resolved it somehow by his strange

395
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:36,639
you know sexual uh practices but um but

396
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:38,720
and mack wasn't afraid to address that

397
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:41,199
and and mac likened himself in some ways

398
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:43,680
to lawrence because lawrence was a very

399
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:46,079
cerebral guy you know the movie got a

400
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:47,759
little bit wrong it made him into you

401
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:50,560
know like a a crazy adventurer

402
00:15:55,749 --> 00:15:52,800
who who's almost a sadist you know he

403
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:55,759
liked to see his men you know

404
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:58,160
torment the enemy and all that and the

405
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:00,160
real lawrence mack found wasn't like

406
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:01,839
that he was a very

407
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,079
internalized kind of guy very shy he

408
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:06,079
didn't even use his real name you know a

409
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:09,440
lot of the time um and he was sickened

410
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:12,399
by violence uh it had to be done if he

411
00:16:16,389 --> 00:16:14,160
was leading an army you know for

412
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:16,399
independence from the turks but

413
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:19,279
he didn't relish uh violence for its own

414
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:23,440
sake and um he had a very uh interesting

415
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:28,160
uh in her life which mack also had so um

416
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:30,160
i think it was a good lead up to what

417
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,079
what he what mack eventually got

418
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:34,720
involved in with with alien abduction

419
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,279
yeah i wonder if it was

420
00:16:41,269 --> 00:16:39,440
you know because of

421
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:41,279
you know the pains that he went through

422
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:42,639
as he was growing up like his mother

423
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:45,199
dying 25 years old appendicitis his

424
00:16:49,910 --> 00:16:47,120
sister 19 years old

425
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,920
and you know that's obviously stayed

426
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:50,880
with him

427
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:53,040
so long uh

428
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:55,199
to the point where

429
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:57,120
i he was at a conference right or

430
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:58,079
something

431
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:00,160
and like a man men's conference or

432
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,800
something and um somebody asked him i

433
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:04,480
forget who it was what's stopping you

434
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:07,280
from ufos and he said

435
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:09,280
uh this made me laugh out loud only

436
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:11,919
because i feel the same exact way

437
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,240
sometimes um he goes i don't have my

438
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:16,559
balls my mom's got my balls you know

439
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:19,280
more or less and like that's

440
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:20,720
that's true

441
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:21,520
though

442
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:24,160
he uh he did join a men's club uh

443
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,600
because he was very conflicted you're

444
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:27,600
absolutely right his mother died when he

445
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:29,200
was eight and a half months old she died

446
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:32,240
of appendicitis uh he was a little you

447
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:33,600
know he's a baby he didn't understand

448
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:36,000
why his mother was suddenly missing from

449
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:38,160
his life and he his father then

450
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:40,160
remarried and he had a stepmother and

451
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:42,400
she was pretty strict with him so he had

452
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:45,760
all these um you know traumas growing up

453
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:47,919
so later on he joined a men's group and

454
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,840
this was in the era of women's lib so

455
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,520
all the women that were getting

456
00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:53,360
liberated and he said well what about us

457
00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:56,000
men we need to be liberated um and since

458
00:18:02,070 --> 00:17:58,320
he was sort of under the thumb of his

459
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,080
of his stepmother um he he you know

460
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:04,240
wrestled with these issues and he as you

461
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:06,320
said yeah he did this exercise at the

462
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:09,440
men's club where he had to grab a big

463
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:12,080
balls and he said you know

464
00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:15,440
i gotta grab them for myself

465
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,320
but that's true and i think

466
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:20,400
what was it it was

467
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:23,679
you know the fear of the situation he'll

468
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:25,840
then be in if he actually does grab his

469
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,320
balls you know you you throw yourself

470
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:30,480
into something that you're kind of maybe

471
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:31,840
even afraid of

472
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:33,840
uh

473
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,559
and you know his critics did not make it

474
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:40,240
easy for him harvard put him under

475
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:41,919
investigation

476
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:44,640
questioning his methods

477
00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:46,960
and the committee that was formed was a

478
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:49,600
secret committee and it was very

479
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:52,480
antagonistic toward

480
00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:54,840
anything that they couldn't

481
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:56,320
identify uh

482
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:57,679
in the real world

483
00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:00,240
um and they kept asking matt can you

484
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:02,160
prove that this and this exists and he

485
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:04,480
said no i can't prove it because it's in

486
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:07,280
this strange area where that seems to

487
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:08,640
defy proof

488
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:11,600
yeah um so it was really a clash of

489
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,360
what he called when matt called a clash

490
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:16,160
of world views uh he he said there's

491
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:18,559
things we don't understand about

492
00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:20,559
the physical world and they said well if

493
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:22,160
you don't understand it you know don't

494
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,440
talk about it

495
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:25,200
that was basically it

496
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:27,679
yeah and imagine how many

497
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:29,840
uh things we'd be missing today in life

498
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:32,880
if if everyone had that attitude uh

499
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:34,240
exactly i mean

500
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:36,160
we don't know everything that exists yet

501
00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:37,360
there's a lot of mysteries in the

502
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:39,840
universe as i say the end of my book if

503
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:41,120
if um

504
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:43,600
if science were to put the kind of money

505
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:44,320
to

506
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:47,600
alien experiences

507
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:50,000
that they put into uh you know black

508
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:53,120
holes and finding the missing particles

509
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,720
of the universe the billions and

510
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:56,720
billions of dollars we'd have some real

511
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:58,799
research going on but because it's been

512
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:01,440
a disreputable topic with a stigma

513
00:20:03,909 --> 00:20:03,039
they haven't been investigated there's

514
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:03,919
some

515
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:05,679
you know minimal investigation going on

516
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,080
now by some very good scientists as to

517
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:10,640
what these um encounters really amount

518
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:12,880
to but they're very mysterious

519
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:13,760
yeah

520
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:16,880
and you kind of nailed it earlier um

521
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,080
people that are

522
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:20,640
upstanding citizens

523
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:23,760
i would assume even some president ceos

524
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:25,440
just completely

525
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:27,280
normal people that you would

526
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:28,960
you know and i use that term who knows

527
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:31,840
what normal means but um

528
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,919
that have these experiences absolutely

529
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,520
that you know i'm glad you started off

530
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:37,120
the show with that observation you had

531
00:20:41,110 --> 00:20:39,840
jay king on who's a wonderful guy who

532
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:41,120
i've interviewed

533
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:42,640
and um

534
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,200
a perfect example of people who accept

535
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:47,760
for their experiences are completely

536
00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:50,320
normal this is what amazed mac

537
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:51,440
that

538
00:20:54,950 --> 00:20:53,840
he could not find anything about these

539
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:54,960
people

540
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:57,760
that set them apart from anybody else

541
00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:00,159
except for these experiences that they

542
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:02,960
had which no one can explain

543
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:05,360
and it's not clear why they're picked

544
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:07,760
uh and why other people are not picked

545
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:08,799
let's say

546
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:11,039
um but as i said there's no common

547
00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:13,360
denominator that that explains oh yeah

548
00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:14,720
you know

549
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:18,640
so-called skeptics out there are very

550
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:20,480
quick with explanation oh you know this

551
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:23,280
is sleep paralysis you know well not all

552
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,840
these encounters happen during sleep or

553
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:27,840
night after night time they happen in

554
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:29,120
the daytime

555
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:31,520
so um the people with the quick

556
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,360
explanations have not done the homework

557
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:35,440
because they don't know how subtle

558
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,440
uh or they maybe they know but they

559
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:39,039
don't want to acknowledge how subtle

560
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:41,440
this phenomenon is right well you could

561
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:48,549
well you know it's like treading into uh

562
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:51,039
unknown territory for for most people

563
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,360
just at all is

564
00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:55,600
you know a fearful thing

565
00:22:00,630 --> 00:21:57,840
um and then you you know throw how

566
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:00,640
intricate detailed and complex this

567
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:03,039
situation is i think it may be sometimes

568
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:04,960
it's even human nature to

569
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:07,520
to brush it off as not real especially

570
00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:09,039
when there's so many other people doing

571
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:10,159
it and you can just well you're

572
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,559
uncomfortable yeah

573
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:14,880
it's probably a natural human reaction

574
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:16,960
to not to confront it because it is so

575
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:19,280
troubling first of all the people who

576
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,600
who've had this experience

577
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:23,120
they're the first to admit it's

578
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:24,320
extremely

579
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,440
traumatic and troubling yeah um and if

580
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,840
they weren't screwed up before

581
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:31,200
uh which they

582
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:33,039
weren't more than anybody else they

583
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,880
certainly were screwed up afterwards by

584
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,559
the experience so it's not the fact that

585
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:38,640
they were screwed up that that gave them

586
00:22:43,029 --> 00:22:41,039
the experience it's it's the other way

587
00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:43,039
around they had this strange experience

588
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,159
which is extremely troubling yeah when

589
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:48,880
you're you know paralyzed and you see

590
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:52,080
this being and you are subject to you

591
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:54,880
know some kinds of horrible medical

592
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:57,600
pseudo-medical procedures and you can't

593
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,240
really object and your partner is

594
00:23:05,029 --> 00:23:02,240
immobilized and all the things that go

595
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:05,039
with these experiences yeah you're going

596
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:06,400
to be troubled

597
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:08,960
yeah yeah well yeah and even if it does

598
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:12,000
turn into or it's supposed to be some

599
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:14,240
sort of enlightening or good thing

600
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:17,360
um like the i would imagine the journey

601
00:23:21,909 --> 00:23:19,600
to get to that point would be incredibly

602
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:21,919
difficult well it's an interesting you

603
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:24,640
raised that uh mac was uh

604
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:27,039
unique basically among

605
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:28,480
um

606
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:31,600
uh abduction researchers who

607
00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:32,320
who

608
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:35,200
believe or heard or or found

609
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:36,400
that the people

610
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:37,840
consulting him

611
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:40,480
were elevated transformed somehow by

612
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:43,360
this experience along with the trauma

613
00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:45,200
they felt somehow that they'd made a

614
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:47,840
connection with something elemental or

615
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:49,840
basic in the universe and that they

616
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,679
learned something and that they got a

617
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,039
message about

618
00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:55,360
you know the the dire condition of the

619
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:57,039
planet

620
00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:59,039
and other people who had investigated

621
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:01,919
the same phenomenon really emphasized

622
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:05,120
mostly the trauma and the the

623
00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:07,440
the fearful aspects but mack kept saying

624
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:09,679
that his people you know

625
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,559
came away with something uh important

626
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:14,799
and almost um

627
00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:18,480
um what's the word i mean uh

628
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:20,720
elevating you know that they uh they

629
00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:23,279
were transformed yeah that's that's a

630
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:24,799
you know and then that makes me think

631
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:27,279
like how many good things in life

632
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:30,000
you know have we obtained personally

633
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:33,120
without first having to go through

634
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:35,120
pain and punishment to get there you

635
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,480
know whether it be

636
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:38,000
you know school

637
00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:40,559
you know getting a degree to get the job

638
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:41,279
or

639
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:46,159
finally be with the one that you should

640
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:48,400
be with that's true that's that's very

641
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,000
true and uh

642
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,400
um and these people and you know it's

643
00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:53,919
almost like at the end of my book i

644
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:55,120
compare

645
00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:58,480
uh max life to the hero's journey

646
00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:00,960
um right and uh

647
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,720
you know and and that's

648
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:04,559
you know you get a summons you get

649
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:06,799
called to some quest that you kind of

650
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:10,000
resist at first yeah and then

651
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:12,080
you go through it

652
00:25:17,909 --> 00:25:15,120
you have all these traumatic adventures

653
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:17,919
and at the end you come away with wisdom

654
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:19,200
yeah

655
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:23,360
and that

656
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:25,440
you know and then

657
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:27,440
makes me think like what is the thing

658
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:28,480
that

659
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:34,559
pull from your book

660
00:25:39,029 --> 00:25:35,840
uh

661
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:39,039
me it was mac on iron john

662
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:40,159
um

663
00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:42,960
where your wound is is where your genius

664
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,240
is and where you'll give the greatest uh

665
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,559
gift to the community

666
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:50,640
and that makes a lot of sense because

667
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:52,880
where that pain comes from is is

668
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:55,120
oftentimes what propels you to continue

669
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:58,400
on yeah that's very deep and uh i think

670
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:01,440
um mack exemplified that that he he did

671
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:04,080
go through a lot of pain yeah he came he

672
00:26:09,269 --> 00:26:07,120
came out with wisdom but um he was very

673
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:09,279
influenced by robert bly you know for

674
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:10,080
the

675
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:11,279
men's uh

676
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:15,279
uh empowerment guru who wrote john

677
00:26:21,909 --> 00:26:19,679
and um he also said max said um taking

678
00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:21,919
it from robert bligh he who speaks the

679
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:23,840
truth better have a horse ready for

680
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:25,840
escape

681
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:27,600
uh

682
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:28,880
yeah

683
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:35,279
but you know you could say you're doing

684
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:37,200
that right now so

685
00:26:41,350 --> 00:26:39,520
you know appreciate that um because like

686
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:41,360
as i was saying earlier if if you

687
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:44,240
wouldn't have uh took that on and i know

688
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:45,919
it's just me one person but i'm sure

689
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:47,840
there's a lot of others uh i would have

690
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:49,200
known about him and i wouldn't have

691
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:50,960
known these quotes that really resonate

692
00:26:54,310 --> 00:26:52,480
with me you know

693
00:26:56,549 --> 00:26:54,320
and his story is good yeah he's a real

694
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:56,559
role model mac i mean look as i say in

695
00:27:01,029 --> 00:26:58,400
the book too he wasn't perfect i mean he

696
00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:01,039
was a human being he was perfect he

697
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,480
uh he was not

698
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:04,159
always faithful to his wife he was

699
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:05,840
always searching maybe because he lost

700
00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:07,760
his mother at an early age but he was

701
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:09,760
always looking for you know that other

702
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:12,400
woman some race in the universe

703
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:14,960
um and he was naive i mean he jumped to

704
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:17,919
conclusions a little too fast he he was

705
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:20,799
talking about alien abduction before he

706
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:22,960
really investigated it thoroughly he was

707
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:25,279
already talking about it at harvard

708
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:26,320
um

709
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:27,200
and

710
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,559
you know he might have done better to

711
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:30,640
hold off a little bit and marshall all

712
00:27:36,389 --> 00:27:33,760
his you know research beforehand so he

713
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,399
um he made some mistakes and he brought

714
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:38,880
some of his experiences onto tv

715
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,039
which was really a disaster

716
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:43,760
because this is a very strange uh

717
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:45,039
phenomenon

718
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:49,360
and to put these people on a tv show

719
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:52,240
it's like becomes like a circus sure

720
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:53,360
yeah and you feel like you're

721
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:54,960
entertainment then you're thinking is

722
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,960
that why this happened to me is that for

723
00:28:01,110 --> 00:27:58,640
other people yeah

724
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:01,120
that's right and and it made them kind

725
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:03,279
of laughing stocks because there's no

726
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:05,840
way you can tell these experiences

727
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:08,080
um really with a straight face they are

728
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:11,520
so weird and so bizarre right they need

729
00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:12,480
to be

730
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,360
um

731
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:15,200
they need to be parceled out you know

732
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:16,960
more carefully like in the book that

733
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:18,960
mack wrote

734
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:19,760
so

735
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,840
who's maybe

736
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:29,520
hadn't experienced

737
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:30,960
let's say they're listening to this for

738
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:33,120
the first time or they

739
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:35,039
just want to start like looking into it

740
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:38,880
and trying to you know get over it or

741
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:41,919
be one with it accept it

742
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:43,039
let's say it happened to you what would

743
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:44,720
you do would you go to a support group

744
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:46,960
would you read a book yeah um well

745
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:48,640
there's certainly books that will

746
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,559
convince you that you're not alone that

747
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:52,960
you're not going crazy actually some

748
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:55,200
people told mac that

749
00:28:59,350 --> 00:28:57,600
after they you know consulted him and he

750
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:59,360
told them that there were other people

751
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,440
with similar experiences they were very

752
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:03,600
disappointed and they said oh my god i

753
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,919
was hoping you'd tell me i was crazy

754
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:08,080
you know yeah now that you told me that

755
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:10,320
this is real that other people have had

756
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:12,640
this that really scared me to death

757
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:14,080
that's what they told him

758
00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:14,960
um

759
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:16,720
so i would say you know there's plenty

760
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:19,679
of books on the subject um other than

761
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:21,200
mine but there's you know whitley

762
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:22,960
strieber's communion

763
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:24,480
books by

764
00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:26,640
hopkins who was the one who got mac

765
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:29,039
interested but i think support groups

766
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:30,799
are a really good idea there are other

767
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:31,760
people

768
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,679
with similar experience jay king is

769
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:35,919
running one the one you guy you had on

770
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:38,880
the show and they bring together people

771
00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:41,200
with common experiences that they can

772
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,559
share that they're not going to be

773
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:44,320
laughed at because other people there

774
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:46,399
have had these experiences

775
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,279
and

776
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:50,240
it's a safe environment uh then they're

777
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:53,039
not going to be laughed at and

778
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:54,799
that's a good way to go what i

779
00:29:59,190 --> 00:29:56,880
appreciate about jay

780
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:59,200
and the experiencer group is

781
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:01,679
um they don't come out and pretend like

782
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,440
they know everything because it happened

783
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:05,360
to them like you know some people have

784
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,520
done that where they told me this and

785
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:09,200
now i know this is happening and the

786
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,840
world has is this way or whatever you

787
00:30:15,909 --> 00:30:14,159
know they're very vulnerable and honest

788
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:15,919
with you know their own

789
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:18,159
you know quest like this happened to me

790
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:20,640
i don't pretend to have the answers

791
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:20,970
um

792
00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:23,520
[Music]

793
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:25,760
the most honest of them will admit uh

794
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:28,159
immediately that they don't understand

795
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:30,000
anything about the experience all they

796
00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:31,120
will say

797
00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:32,640
is that they're absolutely convinced

798
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:34,559
that happened it was not a dream they

799
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:37,120
know dreams and by the way mack wrote a

800
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:40,080
book on nightmares um yes part of his

801
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:41,120
you know

802
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:43,520
very distinguished work at harvard uh he

803
00:30:47,510 --> 00:30:44,960
wrote a book on

804
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:47,520
on childhood development he wrote he

805
00:30:53,590 --> 00:30:50,080
wrote a number of books on a holocaust

806
00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:53,600
survivor on a teenage suicide a girl

807
00:31:00,149 --> 00:30:57,039
committed suicide and he wrote a book on

808
00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:00,159
nightmares and he studied them and

809
00:31:03,669 --> 00:31:01,760
so afterwards you know people couldn't

810
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:03,679
say oh john you don't understand these

811
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,120
people are just having nightmares i

812
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,679
wrote a book on nightmares don't tell me

813
00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:09,600
this is the night the people themselves

814
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:11,679
say look i've had nightmare i know the

815
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:13,039
difference between

816
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:15,519
waking out of a nightmare and seeing one

817
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:18,559
of these beings in my room right so you

818
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:20,799
can't tell these people that they had a

819
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:22,960
nightmare it's very different yeah i

820
00:31:27,029 --> 00:31:24,799
mean some people even wake up with marks

821
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:27,039
on them or whatever well that's right

822
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:28,320
there are these

823
00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:30,480
very strange scars afterwards it's one

824
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,120
of the sort of fragmentary bits of

825
00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:35,360
physical evidence it's very elusive you

826
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:38,159
know this phenomenon is is very strange

827
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:40,640
it doesn't want to be figured out yeah i

828
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:42,000
was just going to say that it reminds me

829
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:43,360
of john keel

830
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:46,480
yeah um operation trojan horse yeah yeah

831
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:49,760
very uh distinguished author too um uh

832
00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:52,880
who who examined this phenomenon and

833
00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:55,360
um yeah it's uh

834
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:57,679
the evidence is is fragmentary for a

835
00:32:01,190 --> 00:32:00,080
reason i mean the the companions of

836
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:01,200
people

837
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:02,080
who

838
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:06,640
they say switched off

839
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:07,519
um

840
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,080
they can't be good uh witnesses to what

841
00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:12,000
happened because they are unconscious

842
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:15,760
for some reason somehow um and then the

843
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:18,880
people themselves afterwards uh sort of

844
00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:21,039
say you know my memory was kind of wiped

845
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:21,919
out

846
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:23,840
i can't remember then sometimes they

847
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:25,200
recall

848
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:27,039
more of it through hypnosis or

849
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:28,640
relaxation techniques but that's

850
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:31,440
problematical too right because hypnosis

851
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:33,279
is not a perfect science

852
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:37,120
and uh it's very um subjective depending

853
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:40,320
on how good the hypnotist is

854
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:41,120
um

855
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:43,120
so there's a lot of problems with with

856
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:46,559
verifying these these encounters and um

857
00:32:50,549 --> 00:32:49,120
and that's part of the the issue i'd say

858
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,559
you know there's a lot of people who say

859
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:52,159
the same thing well where's the proof

860
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:54,480
what's the proof i could say like

861
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:56,799
you know unless you're completely just

862
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,240
inhumane

863
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:01,200
the proof is in the amount

864
00:33:05,669 --> 00:33:04,240
the pure mass amount and variety of

865
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:05,679
people

866
00:33:11,509 --> 00:33:09,120
that describe these things and mind you

867
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:11,519
in different ways each one absolutely

868
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,200
right you know

869
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:15,360
that is so important what you just said

870
00:33:21,269 --> 00:33:17,840
because one of the things that impressed

871
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:21,279
john mack was not only the number

872
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:22,960
of people

873
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:25,279
who came forward with these uh similar

874
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:26,640
experiences

875
00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:30,480
uh sort of parallel accounts

876
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:32,480
but the fact that they were all

877
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:34,240
so individual

878
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:38,240
they had details that were so uh bizarre

879
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:40,399
that you say how could anybody ever make

880
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:41,760
this stuff up

881
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:42,640
um

882
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:44,399
so the you know on the one hand the

883
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:45,840
experiences

884
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:49,120
were kind of common or they had a common

885
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:50,880
thread running through them and on the

886
00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:53,200
other hand there was so many different

887
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:54,880
details it was not like they were

888
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:56,880
reading off one playbook it's okay let's

889
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:59,760
all agree right the experience like this

890
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:00,720
right

891
00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:03,440
uh it's just crazy stuff i mean let me

892
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:04,840
give you one

893
00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:06,399
example a um

894
00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:08,960
a nobel prize winning chemist

895
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:11,119
named carrie mullis he just died about

896
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:14,159
two years ago he won a nobel prize nobel

897
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:17,599
prize not a politician nobel prize

898
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:19,599
prize for chemistry but by figuring out

899
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:22,960
a way to replicate dna billions of times

900
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,960
so it could be studied so he was no

901
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:27,359
dummy okay yeah so

902
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:30,000
he goes to his cabin in mendocino

903
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:32,079
california one night

904
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:35,440
and um he goes out to do some work in

905
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:37,520
the in the back and the yard takes a

906
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:38,800
flashlight

907
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:39,760
and

908
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:42,639
he sees a glowing object that he says

909
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,960
turns out to be a raccoon

910
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,119
a glowing raccoon and a raccoon talks to

911
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:49,440
him and says good evening doctor

912
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:52,399
okay and the next thing he knows he says

913
00:34:56,389 --> 00:34:55,040
he's on the road it's morning

914
00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:56,399
he doesn't know where the flashlight

915
00:34:59,670 --> 00:34:58,000
went he doesn't know what happened his

916
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:59,680
clothes are dry

917
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:01,280
even though he spent

918
00:35:05,430 --> 00:35:03,680
presumably he was outside all night he

919
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,440
doesn't know how he got there

920
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:08,000
and uh he tells that story in his book

921
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,560
he told that story in his book now no

922
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:12,400
spaceship involved

923
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:13,760
no aliens

924
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:17,599
just a glowing talking raccoon

925
00:35:23,349 --> 00:35:21,200
wow uh and again this guy's a nobel

926
00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:23,359
prize winning size so he he's he's got

927
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:26,000
enough smarts to to win a nobel prize

928
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:27,839
and he's telling the story so that's

929
00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:30,800
pretty interesting yeah it is um it you

930
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:31,520
know

931
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,160
maybe it's easier for for experiencers

932
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:37,200
to get in you know to at least

933
00:35:40,150 --> 00:35:39,200
take in this information too because

934
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:40,160
there's

935
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:41,920
at the end of the day what do they say

936
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,079
you know there's there's no knowledge

937
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:46,880
like firsthand experience right um so

938
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,400
people who haven't had it it's it's

939
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:50,079
really hard to well there is that's

940
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:52,079
right there is this big divide the

941
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,440
people

942
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:56,160
have not

943
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:59,520
had this experience cannot imagine

944
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:00,880
what it could be so they're very

945
00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:03,440
skeptical and the people who've had it

946
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:06,320
uh cannot imagine not having had it so

947
00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:08,000
they are absolutely convinced that it

948
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:09,520
happened so you have these two groups of

949
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:12,560
people who really cannot compare

950
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:14,800
experiences and that's what makes it so

951
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:16,960
difficult yeah um

952
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,760
it's a real problem that uh getting

953
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:22,000
acknowledgement that these people have

954
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:24,320
actually had something happen to them

955
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:26,880
yeah well one one day i'll tell you

956
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:28,400
about what happened to me i didn't see

957
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:30,960
any beings or anything but it it was a

958
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,040
consciousness thing

959
00:36:36,390 --> 00:36:35,040
where a dream came true and then i saw

960
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:36,400
two crazy

961
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:37,839
things so

962
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:41,520
i'll have to tell you about that but um

963
00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:42,240
no

964
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:43,680
yeah you wrote you wrote that book

965
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,240
wonderful book um but you're not done

966
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:48,240
yet and then you write the the wonderful

967
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:50,960
article that was in the debrief

968
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,079
um

969
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,480
you know and as always what i appreciate

970
00:36:58,470 --> 00:36:56,640
about your writing is you put a lot of

971
00:37:01,349 --> 00:36:58,480
context to it first before the

972
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:01,359
deliverables come so to speak

973
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:03,680
and um

974
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:05,040
so when you

975
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:06,800
when you decided

976
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:08,720
or when the story decided it wanted to

977
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:09,920
be told

978
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:11,520
whatever you prefer

979
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:12,880
um

980
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:15,520
how how did that take place you know how

981
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:18,960
did um jay and and the experiencer group

982
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:21,440
or or the people that you mentioned

983
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:23,280
um how did that find you

984
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:24,560
well um

985
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:25,440
i

986
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:40,160
um

987
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:42,160
for a variety of reasons

988
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:44,079
uh including the editor who commissioned

989
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:46,560
the piece i mean people move on you know

990
00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:48,000
people don't stay in the same job

991
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:50,320
forever so i i had the kind of

992
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:53,359
misfortune you could almost say uh

993
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:55,599
of having my editors

994
00:38:01,910 --> 00:37:58,560
change while i was working on the piece

995
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:01,920
so um the same enthusiasm wasn't there

996
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:04,320
when i finished the piece yeah that

997
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:06,640
happens look i i had 45 years at the new

998
00:38:10,950 --> 00:38:08,960
york times and i know that

999
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:10,960
not every editor thinks alike and some

1000
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:12,800
editors like this piece and some editors

1001
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:15,200
like that piece so um and it's a

1002
00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:17,359
different look it's a difficult topic

1003
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:19,760
yeah you know alien abduction let's face

1004
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:20,480
it

1005
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:23,440
so and the times had um

1006
00:38:27,829 --> 00:38:26,160
printed a number of stories about ufos

1007
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:27,839
that i collaborated on including the

1008
00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:30,560
december going back decades too well

1009
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:32,160
well going back decades and then the

1010
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:33,839
pieces that i wrote with colleagues in

1011
00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:36,400
2017 that kind of changed the paradigm

1012
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:38,480
talked about the secret pentagon unit

1013
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:40,400
i'd say that was investigating ufos so

1014
00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:42,160
the times had done these pieces so they

1015
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:44,960
wanted this piece then the people left

1016
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,880
so there wasn't the same enthusiasm for

1017
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:48,880
the piece so i could sell it elsewhere

1018
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:50,720
so the debrief was very

1019
00:38:53,990 --> 00:38:51,599
um

1020
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,000
open to it yeah and

1021
00:38:59,190 --> 00:38:56,640
uh what i did in that piece was start

1022
00:39:02,710 --> 00:38:59,200
off with uh the fact that the pentagon

1023
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:02,720
report came out june 25th that basically

1024
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:05,119
verified the um

1025
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:06,720
or authenticated

1026
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:09,839
the existence of ufos without saying

1027
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:11,359
anything about

1028
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,320
uh where they come from who's you know

1029
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:17,359
why they're here you know who's

1030
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:18,640
running them

1031
00:39:21,910 --> 00:39:20,160
if there's an intelligence but none of

1032
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:21,920
those questions got answered but the

1033
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:23,280
most important question is that yeah

1034
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:24,320
they're real

1035
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:27,680
so i sort of took off from that and said

1036
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:30,720
pentagon now confirms that ufos are real

1037
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:36,470
any of the explanations for them but

1038
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:38,400
there are these people all over the

1039
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:40,240
world

1040
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:42,240
who say they've had encounters with

1041
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:43,680
alien beings

1042
00:39:49,589 --> 00:39:46,240
so uh what are what are we to make of

1043
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:49,599
that so i i i said and and the debrief

1044
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:51,440
was very careful to separate this out

1045
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,960
and say we can't authenticate these

1046
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:54,960
accounts of course who can

1047
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,520
right uh but here they are yeah that's

1048
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:59,599
kind of what goes without saying yeah

1049
00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:01,520
yeah and jay king and and

1050
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:03,599
three other people were very good in

1051
00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:05,760
talking to me sharing their experiences

1052
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,760
which are wild

1053
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:09,119
wild

1054
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:11,280
and i i deliberately put it in their own

1055
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:12,560
words

1056
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:15,200
because i wanted readers to hear them

1057
00:40:20,390 --> 00:40:17,839
talk about it not me interpreting what

1058
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:20,400
they had to say right um you know the

1059
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,200
appearances of mantis-like beings like

1060
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:25,520
you know that just materialize

1061
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:27,280
and speak latin

1062
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:29,359
i mean stuff that's

1063
00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:30,240
just

1064
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:32,800
wild wild stuff and yet this is what

1065
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:34,880
these people say that's a good point

1066
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:37,040
about the latin i mean that's not really

1067
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:40,720
a language that's uh used very often

1068
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:41,839
anymore

1069
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:42,720
no

1070
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:47,040
it's it's telepathic all these

1071
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:49,839
experiences say that they don't actually

1072
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,079
hear the words the words pop into their

1073
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:54,000
minds so there's some

1074
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:54,880
um

1075
00:40:59,910 --> 00:40:58,000
this is a very common uh observation by

1076
00:41:02,150 --> 00:40:59,920
the experiencers that they get

1077
00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:02,160
telepathic messages through through the

1078
00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:03,200
eyes

1079
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:04,000
yeah

1080
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:08,000
the law in enlarged insect-like eyes of

1081
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:11,040
these beings um but they get the and by

1082
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:12,960
the way little kids have said this too

1083
00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:14,880
the the famous uh

1084
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:17,359
um episode in um

1085
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:20,800
uh in zimbabwe uh in southern africa

1086
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:25,200
that john mack investigated in 1994

1087
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:27,359
where children at a school reported the

1088
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:30,160
landing of some kind of craft and beings

1089
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:32,560
that that the children saw 60 kids

1090
00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:34,880
reported the same thing yeah

1091
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:37,920
it's really one of the best recorded uh

1092
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:40,480
you know episodes incidents

1093
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:44,720
um on record and it's still a mystery

1094
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:47,440
yeah sometimes you know it's speculation

1095
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:49,680
but sometimes i think like

1096
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:52,240
there was an intent there

1097
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:55,280
for it to be with kids that were so

1098
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:58,000
young and so many so that it could be a

1099
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,079
story that lives on

1100
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:02,400
and be corroborated for so long

1101
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:04,400
well you know it's interesting

1102
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:07,119
when john mack went to investigate that

1103
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:10,160
and and recorded the kids on um on

1104
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,200
camera

1105
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:13,040
and they re and got their drawings that

1106
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:16,079
they did which were all very similar um

1107
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:18,640
one of the parents asked him

1108
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:21,200
why do you think the this

1109
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:24,000
spacecraft landed with the beings just

1110
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:26,000
at a time when the kids were at recess

1111
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,520
and no adults were present yeah okay and

1112
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:31,440
he said you know i'm not very good with

1113
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:34,160
alien psychology

1114
00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:37,760
i don't know why they picked that time

1115
00:42:43,109 --> 00:42:40,160
yeah if i find out

1116
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:43,119
if you shoot me an email yeah

1117
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:44,960
but uh you know they kept going to him

1118
00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:46,640
and saying why did the why would the

1119
00:42:50,390 --> 00:42:48,720
aliens i don't know why the aliens would

1120
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,400
do this you know right

1121
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:52,960
that's always the interesting thing too

1122
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:55,200
is is so many people have put so much

1123
00:42:58,870 --> 00:42:56,720
time into this and

1124
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:58,880
i feel like

1125
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:02,000
you know at the end of it are we any

1126
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:05,200
do we know any more or do we know less

1127
00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:07,200
that's a good question well all we have

1128
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:10,319
is a growing body of anecdotal accounts

1129
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:12,400
with some fragmentary

1130
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:14,400
fragmentary physical evidence for

1131
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:18,240
example uh their cases of um

1132
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:20,720
where people have seen a ufo land

1133
00:43:25,990 --> 00:43:23,359
uh some evidence of broken branches and

1134
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,000
the ground doesn't react you know the

1135
00:43:31,510 --> 00:43:28,800
grass is pressed down the ground doesn't

1136
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:31,520
uh snow snow melts quicker in these

1137
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:33,520
areas and things like that so it's very

1138
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:37,040
fragmentary um it's not it's it's not

1139
00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:38,960
what you'd call absolute scientific

1140
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,720
proof um

1141
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:42,800
but

1142
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,200
acknowledge it as a genuine mystery and

1143
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:51,359
not something that can be

1144
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:53,040
easily explained if you just pull the

1145
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:54,960
explanation out of a hat

1146
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:56,000
yeah

1147
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:59,200
well you know we

1148
00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:00,560
i'm glad that there's people like

1149
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,440
yourself continuing to try and you know

1150
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:04,960
you mentioned the

1151
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:07,599
new york times story in 2017

1152
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:09,200
and

1153
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:10,880
i gotta tell you since i've been doing

1154
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:13,440
this now this isn't the case for me but

1155
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:15,359
there are so

1156
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,079
many more people

1157
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:20,880
um in this community

1158
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:23,599
because of that story

1159
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:24,560
you know

1160
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:25,359
so

1161
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:27,520
for what it's worth you know

1162
00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:29,119
for better or for worse we'll find out i

1163
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:30,400
guess but

1164
00:44:34,470 --> 00:44:32,640
but uh you should really um patch

1165
00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:34,480
yourself on the on the back for that

1166
00:44:39,990 --> 00:44:38,079
that was a huge uh pump uh we keep

1167
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,000
hearing how that changed you know how it

1168
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:42,800
made it um

1169
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,440
safe or respectable for mainstream media

1170
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,359
to confront the topic and what we

1171
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:49,280
reported on was that

1172
00:44:55,060 --> 00:44:53,520
the pentagon had this office a tip

1173
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:55,070
um

1174
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:56,480
[Music]

1175
00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:58,800
we don't have to get into that yeah i

1176
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:59,760
mean

1177
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:00,720
you know

1178
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:02,560
we don't need to add to that tracking a

1179
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,640
way of tracking um

1180
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:06,640
advanced vehicles that they were

1181
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:08,000
spotting in

1182
00:45:11,109 --> 00:45:09,440
above a

1183
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:11,119
convoy of ships

1184
00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:14,880
uh in one case in in you know 2004 off

1185
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:16,640
the west coast and later off the east

1186
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:19,119
coast so they were seeing these things

1187
00:45:23,190 --> 00:45:22,160
and they they got money from harry reid

1188
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:23,200
um

1189
00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:26,000
uh who i think you had on the show yeah

1190
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:28,720
yeah very fortunate majority leader who

1191
00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:30,800
was not afraid to confront this issue

1192
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:32,400
and he got the money

1193
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:34,960
um to continue investigating and lou

1194
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,760
elisondo headed the office so yeah and

1195
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:39,440
that's what we reported which nobody

1196
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:42,560
knew until that time yeah i can imagine

1197
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:44,720
the first time busting out that paper

1198
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:47,440
what

1199
00:45:58,710 --> 00:45:54,640
does off-world mean really

1200
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:00,790
have do you feel like you have

1201
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,599
learned anything about this or what's

1202
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:06,079
your goal at this point to keep to keep

1203
00:46:11,910 --> 00:46:09,200
revealing new things or adding to the

1204
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:11,920
library or what do you think well you

1205
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:12,640
know

1206
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:16,720
i'm learning as as we go um

1207
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:18,880
uh it's it's still a big obviously a

1208
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:21,359
huge mystery uh we look the government

1209
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:23,760
knows more than we know uh there's

1210
00:46:26,829 --> 00:46:25,200
information

1211
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:26,839
we put out three

1212
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:29,040
videos we in the new york times put out

1213
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:33,119
three videos that the navy had uh made

1214
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:34,720
of these objects

1215
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,119
um but there are only parts of longer

1216
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:39,280
videos so we don't know what the other

1217
00:46:43,589 --> 00:46:41,680
videos show there's many other videos

1218
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:43,599
right so the government knows a lot more

1219
00:46:47,589 --> 00:46:45,280
that it's not saying now

1220
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:47,599
a lot of this information is classified

1221
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:49,359
and you can argue about you know whether

1222
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,200
it should be classified whether this is

1223
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,280
information that belongs to the american

1224
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:55,040
people or the world

1225
00:47:01,109 --> 00:46:58,560
but the fact is um some of it involves

1226
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:01,119
defense you know related matters so they

1227
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:02,560
say well you know we're not going to

1228
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:04,400
tell our adversaries how much we know

1229
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:06,240
about this technology

1230
00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:07,280
um

1231
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:11,119
so there's a lot of i'm gonna try to

1232
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:12,960
find out as much as i can and leslie

1233
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:15,760
kane who uh you know we continue to work

1234
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:18,880
together uh is is

1235
00:47:22,549 --> 00:47:20,640
trying to find out and

1236
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:22,559
whenever we get something good enough

1237
00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:25,119
that that we can authenticate and by the

1238
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:27,599
way uh all our articles in the new york

1239
00:47:33,190 --> 00:47:30,720
times were um

1240
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:33,200
not anonymous uh sources you know

1241
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:37,200
renamed our sources amen

1242
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,920
amen to that yeah amen because you know

1243
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:41,359
it's too much of this report you know

1244
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:42,800
there's a lot of stuff on the internet

1245
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:44,400
you know god bless the internet it

1246
00:47:50,230 --> 00:47:48,000
brings a lot of information out but um

1247
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:50,240
you can't you can't verify the

1248
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:51,599
information if you don't know where it's

1249
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:53,760
coming from so if you quote you know

1250
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:55,680
anonymous sources and you know some

1251
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:58,240
high-level officials said this uh you

1252
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:00,880
can't judge um how reliable it is so

1253
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:03,920
we've been very careful to uh you know

1254
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:06,960
quote people by name so people can

1255
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:08,960
verify you know where the information is

1256
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:11,440
coming from and that kind of limits us

1257
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:13,119
into what what we can say because we've

1258
00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:14,559
got to find people who will talk on the

1259
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:16,880
record which is not that easy yeah i

1260
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:19,839
well i could imagine so you uh leslie

1261
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:21,119
and yourself are

1262
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:24,640
uh maybe a holding the line for um

1263
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:27,119
you know integrity driven uh journalists

1264
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:28,319
we're not the only ones they're good

1265
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:29,680
people out there you know there's very

1266
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:32,319
good investigators out there but we but

1267
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:34,480
the times has a special burden

1268
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:36,559
uh in this field because they're the new

1269
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:38,960
york times so yeah um

1270
00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:41,119
we have very high standards and uh you

1271
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:42,880
know when we were working on some of our

1272
00:48:48,230 --> 00:48:46,720
pieces leslie and i uh it was sometimes

1273
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:48,240
uncomfortable because people were kind

1274
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:49,920
of tracking us on the internet and

1275
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,680
saying oh they just interviewed so and

1276
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:53,280
so that must mean that they're going to

1277
00:48:55,990 --> 00:48:54,800
be doing this and they're going to break

1278
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:56,000
this story

1279
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,160
and we weren't prepared to you know to

1280
00:49:01,910 --> 00:49:00,640
break the stories that people were

1281
00:49:03,670 --> 00:49:01,920
writing about you know what are you

1282
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:03,680
going to do oh yeah you're right here

1283
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:06,160
here's what i got yeah

1284
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,359
you know it was it was really

1285
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:09,359
uncomfortable and uh

1286
00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:11,839
we complained at one point you know in

1287
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:13,920
in print and something i guess i wrote

1288
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,400
said on the air so that these people

1289
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:18,880
made our jobs more difficult and yeah

1290
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:20,720
that itself caused a little controversy

1291
00:49:25,270 --> 00:49:23,440
but um look that's the nature of the

1292
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:25,280
internet it is the wild west and people

1293
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:27,200
are saying all kinds of things and we

1294
00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:28,720
have free speech in this country that's

1295
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:30,880
great so they can say what they want but

1296
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:33,280
we are kind of limited to what we can

1297
00:49:36,230 --> 00:49:35,359
put in the times because it has to be

1298
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:36,240
really

1299
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:38,160
verified indicated

1300
00:49:43,430 --> 00:49:40,400
were you getting any weird stuff from

1301
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:43,440
colleagues or other people in the office

1302
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:45,680
that were kind of

1303
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:47,839
leslie keen to what you were doing no

1304
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:49,040
pun yeah

1305
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:52,240
uh right well uh helene cooper the third

1306
00:49:55,349 --> 00:49:54,160
member of our group who covers the

1307
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:55,359
pentagon

1308
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:56,480
um

1309
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:58,240
she got more of that in the in the

1310
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:00,880
washington bureau she told us later

1311
00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:03,119
um that people would sort of make fun

1312
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:03,839
and

1313
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:14,160
on her terminal yeah uh the the other

1314
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:17,040
reporters crowded around oh my god oh my

1315
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:19,760
god so yeah she told us that story

1316
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:22,800
afterwards that that really

1317
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:25,040
made a big impact among colleagues so

1318
00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:27,040
they weren't making such jokes after

1319
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:29,599
that yeah and you know and the thing is

1320
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:32,319
it's whenever this comes up and people

1321
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:33,839
get uncomfortable or make fun or

1322
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:36,319
whatever it's like listen i'm not

1323
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:38,640
telling you what the thing is

1324
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:40,800
you know i don't i don't know what's in

1325
00:50:47,430 --> 00:50:44,000
it it maybe it's an alien maybe it's a

1326
00:50:49,589 --> 00:50:47,440
chimpanzee maybe it's a mantis maybe you

1327
00:50:51,910 --> 00:50:49,599
know we're driving it with our heads who

1328
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,920
knows but it's out there and our

1329
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:53,440
government doesn't know what it is yeah

1330
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:55,280
there is a you know that that's a big

1331
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:57,839
problem with this subject it was you

1332
00:51:01,829 --> 00:51:00,480
know matter a ridicule for a long time

1333
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:01,839
and the government used that

1334
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:04,319
deliberately yeah in the early days in

1335
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:05,839
the 50s

1336
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:11,200
uh to uh to drive away interest to tamp

1337
00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:14,240
down interest they deliberately made it

1338
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:15,040
uh

1339
00:51:19,030 --> 00:51:15,920
look

1340
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:19,040
like a communist plot or like um you

1341
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:20,960
know this was insanity

1342
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:23,040
or these people were you know were crazy

1343
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:25,040
who were propounding this

1344
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:28,240
so the government used that as a way of

1345
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:29,520
of um

1346
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:32,319
you know diminishing interest in a field

1347
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:34,319
that they they couldn't control or they

1348
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,839
didn't know

1349
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:37,920
they were they were ignorant too they

1350
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:40,160
didn't know what was going on but they

1351
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:41,839
they didn't want these stories floating

1352
00:51:45,670 --> 00:51:43,440
around so they

1353
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:45,680
they worked to plant this information

1354
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:48,800
and and ridicule wow so

1355
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:50,880
yeah i mean i know there's there's

1356
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:53,040
stories about like mockingbird and and

1357
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:54,640
all that or

1358
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:56,720
you know putting journalists in

1359
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:58,960
media news outlets to kind of do things

1360
00:52:00,870 --> 00:52:00,079
like that

1361
00:52:01,750 --> 00:52:00,880
um

1362
00:52:03,750 --> 00:52:01,760
so

1363
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:03,760
but i i haven't you know again i've only

1364
00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:05,359
been looking at this for so long and

1365
00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:06,880
most of my time has been looking at

1366
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:08,720
actual documents but

1367
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:13,270
do you know of an example back then of

1368
00:52:19,349 --> 00:52:16,400
where they literally made up some crazy

1369
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:19,359
wild story to to get people to laugh at

1370
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:20,800
it basically

1371
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:22,880
um yeah there are documents that came

1372
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:24,240
out um

1373
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:26,720
you know the cia did a document dump a

1374
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:28,800
few years ago

1375
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:31,119
and even before that documents surfaced

1376
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:34,400
uh that they um

1377
00:52:38,790 --> 00:52:37,040
really had a strategy to to poke fun at

1378
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:38,800
this and they enlisted the walt disney

1379
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:40,640
company by the way

1380
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:44,000
to promulgate some of these uh

1381
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:45,520
you know

1382
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:51,040
wacky who were reporting this

1383
00:52:55,510 --> 00:52:53,119
um so there's a long history to this is

1384
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:55,520
not you know this conspiracy theory this

1385
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:57,599
is a fact that the government really

1386
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:00,800
embarked on disinformation campaign

1387
00:53:06,549 --> 00:53:03,280
in order to draw attention away from it

1388
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:06,559
because they couldn't explain it and

1389
00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:08,730
you know and there are other look

1390
00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:10,720
[Music]

1391
00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:12,880
there was a whole campaign

1392
00:53:19,430 --> 00:53:16,079
secret government campaign to

1393
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:19,440
introduce lsd into the population to

1394
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:23,520
test it and um mk ultra and it was a

1395
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:25,760
huge scandal when it came out in the 70s

1396
00:53:29,670 --> 00:53:27,440
it was investigated by a senate

1397
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:29,680
committee and it sounds like science

1398
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:32,160
fiction and it sounds like you know

1399
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:32,880
uh

1400
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,000
q anon stuff right it's not i mean it

1401
00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:38,079
really happened there was a

1402
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:41,520
campaign by the cia to

1403
00:53:47,190 --> 00:53:45,040
um test uh dangerous drugs on unwitting

1404
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,200
civilians like what are they thinking

1405
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:49,760
like well that's right and let's dose

1406
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:53,440
them up and just see how they react yeah

1407
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:55,599
it's a very sad chapter in american

1408
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:56,720
history

1409
00:54:02,790 --> 00:53:59,280
beyond said i mean sinister sinister is

1410
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:02,800
probably a better word yeah yeah well

1411
00:54:06,790 --> 00:54:05,119
we're about hitting the hour mark here

1412
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:06,800
um

1413
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:08,880
and man i just wanted to thank you again

1414
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:11,440
for taking out you know time for me

1415
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:13,359
today to do this i really do appreciate

1416
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:16,079
it hopefully i'll have you back on again

1417
00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:18,559
um hopefully i'll have leslie on i just

1418
00:54:23,190 --> 00:54:20,319
admire you guys and your work so much

1419
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:23,200
thanks yeah really a pleasure and uh

1420
00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:24,880
yeah i love talking about it i mean i

1421
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:26,800
have a lot of admiration for john mack

1422
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:29,119
who took on the subject uh you know he's

1423
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:31,920
not well known today he was in his time

1424
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:33,440
pretty well known he was on all those

1425
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:34,559
pros and

1426
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:37,359
um the harvard investigation was was

1427
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:40,480
secret but it did come out um

1428
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:42,880
i have all the details in my book but

1429
00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:47,119
um anyway i think he was a hero and um

1430
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:47,920
yeah

1431
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:50,079
you know we we need to we need more

1432
00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:52,160
people like that who are not afraid to

1433
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:53,599
to dig into it

1434
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:55,839
um i'm not and i'm just i'm just

1435
00:55:00,710 --> 00:54:58,000
beginning my journey there so

1436
00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:00,720
um i can't wait to learn more about it

1437
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:03,040
and you know maybe have the opportunity

1438
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:05,760
down the road to hash over that stuff

1439
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:07,040
with you again that would be well it's

1440
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:10,160
not going away sean so uh you know

1441
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:13,520
you'll have plenty of opportunity

1442
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:15,680
all right well hey anything you need for

1443
00:55:20,470 --> 00:55:17,680
me i don't know what that would ever be

1444
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:20,480
but you got it um i i really like it

1445
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:22,559
this is a great talk thank you i really

1446
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:24,400
enjoyed it yep

1447
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:32,309
all right so thanks for watching guys

1448
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:35,040
that was a great talk and we will get